Well i got picked up in a party yesterday, and hit 64... here was the set up.
BLM/WHM (me)
WAR/NIN (mithra/JP)
NIN/WAR (Taru/JP)
MNK/THF (Galka/JP)
RDM/WHM (Elveen/NA)
COR/WHM (Hume/JP,NA?) (party leader)
Party Location: Bibiki Bay

From what i could tell is the COR primarly used Rogues and some other roll on the melees, and tended to put only evokers roll on the mages. Now i'm glad that he didn't spam the COR roll, but the mages often had only one buff up... i really didn't care for that too much. Even a random other roll would have been sutible. The only other problem was the NIN didn't keep hate very well, i'd often pull the mob off with a tier 2. But other than that the MNK/THF was a welcome change as it seemed to add to the dmg pool, because the mnk wasn't missing and because he could SATA on a WS. From what i could tell COR/WHM is viable as a sub... well hope that helps some on this debate... so the answer is no you don't need COR roll, and no it shouldn't be used only... actual golagres noted that a party he was in a COR would often put up COR roll before the mob died, then rebuff with something else during the fight. More compitant BRDs tend to layer buffs in this same fashion... you'll usually be able to tell those ones from the others we call them turn signals because they blink out so often. They tend to do alot of running around to... which is what our COR ended up doing most of the night.

I would have to agree with you here. I hope you are not totally against Corsair's roll in all situations. I am certain most everyone in this LS is smart enough to realize that their job in the party is for the most part situational...and know better than to force something that just shouldn't happen.



As a whm, my job tends to never be the same each party. It all depends on many things...such as the type of mob we are fighting, how long the fights last, if we have a rdm or brd in the party, if we have a thf, etc. Depending on how the first few fights go, I can tell exactly what I will have to do to keep the party running the best I can make it. If everyone in the party realizes what they need to do on their own to optimize the party, then /hurray, we have a winner!

So, lets look at a certain situation...and determine if corsairs roll is better than others.

For simplicity let's go with a mob that is +10 levels from your highest member (Level 61+). This mob would check as just IT. We will have to make an assumption of how long each battle lasts on average. Let us assume that the party demands corsair's roll and wizards roll (or whatever the refresh one is), leading to an average battle time of 65 seconds. (This is just a poor example only to illustrate....well I don't really know what I am trying to illustrate. Let's continue anyway). With an average battle time of 65 seconds, and each mob being +10 levels away, you will mostly get to exp chain #2 (you have 80 seconds to kill the monster for chain 2). To achieve a chain 3, you have to kill the mob in under 60 seconds. On average, this wouldn't happen. Refrence guide.



Best case (Constant 25% bonus from cor roll)

The first kill yields 168*1.25 = 210 exp.

Second kill with chain 1 yields 168*1.2*1.25 = 252 exp.

Third kill with chain 2 yields 168*1.25*1.25 = 270 exp.

Fourth kill with no chain = 210 exp.

Fifth kill with chain 1 = 252 exp.

Total = 1194 exp in 325 seconds.



Now assume without corsair's roll, with a roll that speeds up the kill rate, our average battle lasts 48 seconds (25% decrease). This would grant you a chain #3 most of the time.

First mob = 168 exp

Second mob with chain 1= 168*1.2 = 201 exp

Thrid mob with chain 2= 168*1.25 = 210 exp

Fourth mob with chain 3= 168*1.3 = 219 exp

Fifth mob with no chain = 168

Sixth mob with chain 1= 201 exp

Seventh mob with chain 2= 210 exp

Total = 1377 exp in 336 seconds.



With cor roll => 3.673 exp/sec

Without cor roll => 4.098 exp/sec



Honestly, either party pulling in this much exp/hour is one to be in. The second scenario is pulling in about 14k exp an hour! So...as you can see, my fake party is not realistic. It is only an exagerated scenario to prove my point. The random assumptions (25% decrese in kill time?) only show at least one instance where the corsairs+wizards roll is not better than hunters+wizards roll.



Point being, an educated person should be the once who recommends which rolls the corsair should use to benefit the party, and yet this cannot be determined without first experimenting with the rolls to find out which are best for the GIVEN party! To demand from the beginning which roll to use, which songs should be played, etc is just ignorant. Most importantly, everyone should play their job to have fun.



That's all I have. I'm going to bed.

Firstly i'd like to appluade you for the soapbox referance too many ppl have forgotten its referance to early americana. ^^

You'll always here me bitch about NA's and there little understanding of party mechanics. I'd totally agree that COR should not be EXP Whores... i even made a point of mentioning that upon first hearing of this ability... i said OMFG EXP WHORE time. Really i'd down play this as a situational fault... As you said each roll is a gamble, i'd prefer to not gamble with my EXP... The thing i have to state time and time again is that IT doesn't equate to good experience in fact IT's net you roughly the same EXP per hour as DC's and EM's. But common NA parties will pull them reguardless. So this is becomes another documented instance of faulty logic on the part of the majority of NA players. The others being of course:

BRD BALLAD ONRY
NIN SUB ONRY
SAM/THF ONRY
SUSHI ONRY
RDM REFRESH ONRY
etc...
NA's typicaly forget the point behind a job system is to experiment, not create hard fast standards. I personally believe Sam's benifit more from MNK sub than thf... sure they can do spike dmg, but wtf? with mnk sub they counter blows, they get subtle blow, and focus... not to mention HP... Or with RNG you favorite job... how often would you get harrassed in a NA party for subing something other than NIN? I mean its idiocy. THF, or COR could be viable subs for a RNG they boost natural Ranged skill caps, and add some other interesting abilities too.

ON COR: frankly i think SE goofed... they made it more or less BRD lite... they really maybe should have beefed its defense and HP rather than gave it a spell like ability.

well thats what i think... but hell i say give ppl in parties hell if it comes down to it. You know your job not them, after all your the one they piked up to fill that spot. If you want ppl to stop asking for it you could try to bust it whenever someone asks lol.

Welcome to life as a support job. I feel your pain and I've heard of many other similar complaints.

I will say this, however, thus far I've only partied with CORs as a NIN. My personal evasion is already very high and I get interrupted rarely. Also, my ACC is already very high so I tend not to miss.

Thus, the only roll I really need beyond Corsair's is Rogue's Roll, for more criticals (and keeping hate).

I agree it's always going to be highly situational, and you may find other NINs out there with lousy EVA or ACC who need other rolls, but for me, personally I'd prefer Rogue's and Corsair's (unless we're fighting MNK mobs or something and I need Choral and Rogue's).

I guess what I'm saying is don't discount Corsair's outright because everyone always wants it. You may find situations where certain members really will only need one roll beyond Corsair's.

Vis Maior's Journeys
http://maior.samhart.net/

As Sam would say, “Sing it sister.”

I had a discussion about this same topic with quite a few people (mainly Sam). We came to the conclusion that most people do not really understand party dynamics or how to effectively work with support jobs. Milo, on occasion will preach this…

For example, being a BRD, most melee will always request something along the lines of “zomgom1!! I hitorz hardssz.z Minuet 14 onry!1!onetyseven.” When in actuality, I would prefer to sing situational songs such as Marches, Paeons or Etudes (depending upon Weapon Skill modifier). “Common buffs” are great, but if an alternate buff leads to faster chains, I would much rather use that.

The fact is, as a support job, you are only as effective and strong as your dumbest party member and that sucks; most players do not want to "ride out" a buff and fully evaluate its effects...